https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_AUG
LARPfag here. The StG77 is the only rifle I know, but I can't believe you can ask for more.
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Look through telescope
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Put center of crosshairs over target
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Pull trigger
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See target pop
Muzzle velocity is 970m/s -- no imagination or mental acrobatics required for targets closer than a hundred yards. Aim a palm or so higher for each extra hundred yards. The rifle is mostly made of plastic and absolutely no burden, not even on 30 ml walks. Careful cleaning is a requirement for automatic action, though, especially for and after using blinds.
How does that compare to U.S. army rifles? Or a Kalashnikov? A problem for guerilleros might be that all parts are machine-tooled, so you need special equipment for making spares.
I dont think 30 milliliters is a long way to walk
I misspelled Angstrom.
Damn you can walk a whole hydrogen atom's diameter 30 times?
Not anymore. I'm an old man now. I also have to suck other men's dicks because I'm not flexible enough for sucking my own. Alas, the youthful days are gone for good... Live fast, do many Angstroms, because the fun won't last forever.
The Marine Corps zeros it's rifles to about 300 yards. But clearly many engagements are closer than that. So, if you're trying to fine tune it for target shooting then there's either math involved or some Kentucky windage that you have to practice.
If it's about self defense then good news, zero it to 3hundo and aim center mass.
Steyr vs M16, having played with both give me the M16 owhll dehy. That Steyr is a maintenance hog (relatively) and the reload mechanism is awkward, even to people who train on them. But, I guess, if a M4gery is too long for you and you really want to pop armor indoors then I guess that's fine.
Nerd.
Thanks, nerd, for expanding my vocabulary, but I'm at odds with
I'd be curious to see other mechanisms, because it looked elegantly simple to me, but then again, never saw any other rifle. Apparently it was not obvious that my experience is limited to mandatory army service. (In Austria, so that's why StG77.)
That was outdoors in one of the harshest winters on record. Thanks again.
Also eye-opening: my focus was on sniping; forgot that typical use is self-defense.
I don't think any platform can match an AR in reloading speed aside from pistols. Plus it'll take some training to re-familiarize the average american with a bullpup reload.
Interesting, because wikipedia sez that it is easier to manoeuver (the mechanics checks out with me; didn't know there is any other way, though.)
The AR is not bullpup? The AUG/StG77 definitely is.
Shorter rifles are easier to maneuver- an 11.5" AR would handle similarly to an AUG coming out of a vehicle or inside buildings, but the short barrel leaves a lot of ballistic performance on the table. Bullpups do have a less ergonomic reload, though, with the magwell being by the operator's torso instead of naturally in the 'working space' directly in front of your, which is also where pistol reloads should occur.
AR is definitely not a bullpup, no.
Interesting, because I guessed that that's better for absorbing the recoil. (As far as I remember recoil was a non-issue with the AUG/StG77, at least while lying on the belly.)
makes sense.
Sorry, I guess the mechanism is fine. I meant more the reloading of a bullpup, not just the Steyr but all of them. Such a strange thing in the prone and while moving. I feel like in my limited time watching the Brits run around I always saw dudes dropping mags/missing the hole if they were moving and reloading.
But if it's what you know then yeahwhy reinvent the wheel my friend. You spend years learning a weapon then why wod you change and try a new one? I don't know much about it for sniping out at range. I'd guess 500 yards what your trying to do? Are they accurate further?
Austrian basic training is only a few months, so sunk cost would not be an issue here. Guns are too expensive for me right now, or better: getting good with them is quite costly and time consuming. Buying a gun without the will to put effort into it is probably a big mistake.
"Sniping" was meant as "shooting at a range with a telescope" without the target shooting back. 500 yards is quite a distance and takes a lot of skill. Apart from that: afaik, sniping is extremely demanding, because you can't take the bus to your target, but must get there on foot in the moutains or jungle. I'm not a sniper.
All this is more theoretical in my case. You guys have told me more than I can process at the moment. Thanks, btw. This brings us to your first paragraph, because I have only a vague understanding what you are talking about. Perhaps I should buy a "rifles for dummies" book before I get back. Guns and war are very interesting, though. I can relate to your passion.
I'm actually really interested in your opinions (I've never worked with the Austrians).
Kentucky Windage is a slang term in the US military that is used when people willfully use their sights "improperly" to compensate for something. For example, let's say you're shooting at 500 yard and you set your site to 500. But, suddenly a target pops up at 200 yards. Now, your sites sent able to properly hit so you "aim lower" or maybe instead of looking through the rear sight ring, you look above it and line up the top edge with the front sight post. But, it's not a guess, if something people generally practice.
The Marines train with the M16 at 500 yards on a man sized target. It's good at 500 so.i would imagine the Steyr can do similar.
What are the laws on reloading ammo in Austria? In the states that's a necessity for zeroing a rifle now a daus
Glee. Are you military? Or a trainer?
Sounds like a more advanced level of technology we had. Our rifles were "calibrated" by a grumpy old authority/armorer for good with tools in his shop (apparently for 100 yards) and there was no way for endusers to change that, especially from target to target. In fact, woe was to folks who had "abused" their weapon in such a way that it had to be "re-calibrated". Factoring in the drop/lag of the bullet for more distant targets or for moving targets was apparently difficult for some people who had not been exposed to vidyas before basic training. 500 yards sounds like a lot to me. Chapeau, marines! [1]
In the army, it is an extremely bureaucratic process (waiting in line, reporting name, officer checks name in list, other officer passes a certain number of bullets, report reception of bullets), but people with a license (hunters, recreational marksmen, etc.) can buy rounds like q-tips, and many do. (Fun fact: not a single day of lockdown for gun shops during the 'rona. Churches, gyms, schools: no such luck. National saltmine.) Getting a license is no problem in Austria; getting it revoked rarely happens, even if you were to run around drunk spraying bullets in public, for as long as noone is hurt. Such things do happen, and the judges at the gun-authority office who rule over such cases usually side with the offender, downplaying incidents. "Look, don't we all get drunk once in a while? And do stupid things? Nothing happened!"
I don't understand what that means. You have to prove that your gun is correctly zeroed in for buying ammo?
Semi-personal account:
Underage baby brother and cousins got busted with a (small) pistol and no license in the woods, practicing. Local residents felt bothered by the noise. Arresting coppers made conversation, talking shop, on the way to the constabulary and were impressed by how much the boys knew about firearms. Cops kept the gun and told them to GTFO. No receipts, no names, no paperwork. (Many people can tell such stories about lenient gun law enforcement. Germany is VERY different in that regard. It is much harder to get a license.)
[1] I checked the numbers for the first time. The required precision is stunning. At a distance of 100 yards/m, if you or your scope is off by an arcMINUTE, you miss by 29 millimeters, more than an inch. It's five times as much for 500 yards. An arcminute is not much. What is counter-intuitive here is that the tilt from the recoil is apparently negligible, at least at 100 yards.
I was Marine Corps back during OIF, but I'm long out now
When I was in basic, long range on iron sights was a point of pride. We were taught how to adjust both sight posts and legitimately got good with it. Now, with ACOGs distance shooting is much easier.
I didn't know Austria had such lax gun laws! I'm putting it on my list as a back up country for when the States goes socialist.
No, we don't have to prove anything to buy ammo, but you need ammo to zero and right now ammo is HARD to find.
Glad you made it back (: There were just two Austrians in Iraq, afaik, as unarmed medic (neutral country, contractual obligation like Finland)
Had to look that up. Yes, looks like a fany piece of hardware.
... that makes old craftmanship and skill obsolete... The technical advantage sounds like a prothesis for a gift a friend has, which is that he has a shortsighted and a farsighted eye or something so he can see both the target and iron sights at the same time, what made him an IPSC natural
Why? Popular theories (this really is a thing in conversations, many armed friends):
1.) Austrian companies make that stuff and want to sell sell sell
2.) Hunting is a thing, especially with ex-royalty, who still has a lot of leverage
3.) 20th century military doctrine, which is essentially training for winter war (Finns got the Soviets BTFOed like 10:1 bodycount or so) and requires an armed, motivated militia
4.) Austria is a money-laundering narco-state, so running guns is a natural extra economy
I keep reading about that and think you guys are doing it right.
Austria is breeeety socialist on the face of it, but only in the big city. On the countryside, not so much (Hitler).
takes a bite of blue crayon
WUN SHOWT WUUUNNN KILL
REDEE TO DAI WILLIN TO KEEEL
*Masterbates with rubbing alcohol and steel wool
Brasso works on everything
I've read that most engagements in Afghanistan were 300-500m. In urban settings they also learned to fall back a few blocks as the troops advanced
Very true, and we'll beyond 500, which is why the At has taken to bringing M14s back since they can reach out to 800.
But mostly because in the early days of the war EVERYTHING was up close and personal so the DoD started switching to M4s. Once Hajii learned we were lethal in MOUT stuff they started pulling back.
Now there's the new debate over the next gen rifle and I'll bet good money whatever will choose will be the wrong rifle for the next war...that's that's just me being an optimist
Totally agree. Now that we're equipping grunts with LPVO's and maybe a better cartridge, I wonder if engagements will be pushed in or out. It seems foolhardy for unarmored Chinese or hajis to go close-in with our armored boys, but I dunno. They were fine with charging up mountain sides in Korea- all I can see is a need to carry ALOT of ammo.
Hahah good point. Maybe there is something to that lightweight texting ammo...
Most intermediate cartridges work that same way. Point center of mass, pull trigger, get a hit between 25-230 yards. There are tricks for shorter distances (put the front post on the top of the back ring for close quarters) and adjustments on some rifles for longer ones. Look up "maximum point blank range" for a longer explanation. Not completely sure how wishcom optics factor into this, but since it's related to the ammo, they're probably fine.
Trade-off on bullpups is it's more difficult (read: slow) to reload, and more maintenance due to more complex trigger assy. Advantage is the barrel is longer compared to the overall length (or the OAL is shorter compared to barrel length). Neutral differences are the ergonomics are fundamentally different. Weight is comparable to other 5.56 rifles like ARs, Kalashes in their 7.62 with wood furniture are obviously heavier. In .mil terms, it fills the same role as an M4 or M16, depending on config.
It's not a sexy answer, but unless you plan on clearing buildings all day, an AR is probably a better choice. From what I've heard, the main AR replacement parts are the gas rings, bolt/extractor, and springs. Steyrs may need more, but I have no clue. I know the one nice thing about Steyrs is the barrels can be quickly swapped, so I guess there's that. You probably can't manu those parts on your own for either style, but AR replacements will be more ubiquitous. Costs will also be better for ARs. The Steyr will be 1900+, while ARs have budget options around 500, or you can buy expensive ones beyond 3000.
The AUG is a very, very sexy rifle. Bullpup so you get a short profile but fullsize barrel and the AUG has a great reputation for reliability and general goodness.
Compared to the AR you will have problems finding parts but the AUG is pretty badass. I don't know much about the AUG long term as i have been sexually involved with the AR for many years now and know it as well as i can know anything besided the AK.
The AK is great but it is a custom gun these days made by different manufacturers and a thing of rivets and steel. The AR can be fixed with a bench vise and hand tools.
If you can get an AUG, get an AUG. Super sexy rifle.
If you can buy a _____ buy a _____ because more gun = good
Yes.
An advocate, great!
Austrian army procurement cost in 1987: ~ a 1000 dollars. I hope I'm not revealing state secrets. I could probably own one legally, but not a fully automatic one ("weapon of war"). For people who are preparing for the worst, spare parts and how to get them are an issue, of course. A friend told me that you can saw and file spare parts for an AR with a jigsaw and manicure utilities from sheet metal. Is that true? No such luck with the "AUG" (never heard that, thanks.)
The AR is usually made in CNC machines and lathes. It's a bit more complicated than what your friend says but oh so easy to maintain and take care of later.
Fun facts, the AR has a safety detent in the lower that is the size of a grain or long rice.
Pretty much for home built guns 3d printing is the next frontier. Lots of cool stuff on there.
Sorry, I confused or misread "AR" as "AK" what I thought is a word for "Kalashnikov", but perhaps isn't, but the friend was talking about the Kalashnikov.
With "AR" you did not mean an "Armalite Rifle", did you?
I did mean armalite. As in the AR15. AR=AR15 AK=AK47 and it's many cousins.
k, thanks.
Btw, I read the sidebar for the first time. As another Austrian said: "I'll be back."
While a lower can be roughed out of nearly anything, the upper is much more difficult (if not impossible) without machining equipment. The barrel extension would also be nearly impossible to do at home. Anything else is fairly simple. Reliable home-builds are the domain of open-bolt, tube-receiver sub machine guns imo.
That I've pieced together myself, it's the rifling in the rifle, right? (I had to look up "grooves and fields"; it's "6 Züge/6 Felder" for the StG77. Was yelled at because I did not know when quizzed by sergeant.)
Why only submachine guns? Aren't they more fragile due to smaller parts?
3D-printers can help a lot, but have limits for force-bearing parts at this point. I doubt that Talibans use them. Not sure what a "lower" and "upper" is, although I read the piece on quora.com .
Also: Automatic rifles are probably a mere incremental improvement over semi-auto in real-life combat.
https://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/776/776862.jpg This complex bit is the receiver extension- the bolt itself would be even more impossible to make at home even with a full machine shop. I doubt a homebuilder could properly heat treat such crucial, high-pressure bearing parts, as well. Threading or button-rifling a barrel is actually pretty easy.
Look up the mechanics of a Sten gun or similar- it's just a cylinder of metal backed by a large spring inside a tube. No need to machine locking lugs, ect. Simple/easy to machine and very durable/reliable with quality mags. There exist plans on several forums for home-built versions that don't truly require anything other than a welder for the receiver. A smaller lathe would do the rest if a parts kit wasn't available. If a home-built gun had to be semi-auto it would actually be more complicated/fragile than a subgun's simple lever fcg, due to having to include a disconnector for the semi's fire control group.
Thinking about it, you can probably cut it with a a tap-and-die [1] like a thread for a screw. (Been there, done that, btw.)
The part in pic looks indeed complicated. Beats me how you make the inside cogs without a CNC mill.
Thanks for your patience. I'm feeling awkward for lack of vocabulary and metalworks knowledge. War is hell. It's an interesting subject, though.
[1] If this makes no sense, I have to look up all the technical terms.
Cheap AUG part kits were available for awhile there, if you were into AUG's it would've been worth it to pick up a few for spare parts
You US-killers are living in an arms paradise. I doubt that I can buy spares just like that in my country (Austria), although it has fairly libertine gun-laws when compared to Germany. (I keep hearing that folks on the Austrian countryside often have large illegal arsenals at home, including weapons of war. Cops are into it, too, and turn a blind eye. That's the Austrian way: strict laws, non-strict enforcement.)